Discussions from deleted pages

general talk page "English Translation"

The chapter nrs should be renamed so that the order will be right: 00a, 00b, 001a etc. Also, in the latest version of the translation, some chapter names have been changed, for example: "013b - A Treacherous Maiden" and "14b. Gosa: Settlement of the Black Men". How can such changes most easily be implemented?

Sorting

For some reason I cannot answer your earlier topic. Probably because it was moved.

The problem you're encountering has to do with the difference between numeric sorting and alphabetic sorting.

Under numeric sorting, pages will be sorted as such: 1, 2, 9, 10, 11, 20, 21, 99, 100. Under regular (non-numeric) sorting, pages will be sorted as text: 1, 10, 100, 11, 2, 20, 21, 9, 99. If numeric sorting is used, all pages starting with a number will be sorted together under a single header: "0–9". If regular sorting is used, pages starting with a number will be sorted under separate headers for whichever number each title begins with: "0", "1", "2", etc.

Until now the wiki was configured to use numeric sorting, but that does not have the required effect, because the chapter numbers are not consistently numbered in the same way. For that, all chapters numbers would have to have the same amount of digits. So in stead of 00, 1, 2, 3 they would all have to be renumbered 00, 01, 02, 03.

Since that is not practical and also not 'nice to read´ I decided (just now) to turn off numerical sorting. The first effect is that all chapters starting with the same number now have their own header on a category page (not 0-9, like before).

But we still have to address the issue that chapters starting with the same digit appear under the same header. Like for instance chapter 10, 11 and so forth, are under 1.

This can be remedied by setting a sort option on the category setup screen in the visual editor. That way you can force a page to appear under a different header. Headers can only be 0 through 9 and A to Z. Since we have more than 10 chapters, I suggest we use letters to organize them better. There's two options. We can use letters for chapter numbers higher than 9 (so Chapter 10 would be sorted under A, 11 will be B, and so forth). The second option would be to put chapter 0 under A, 1 under B, and so forth). Maybe the easiest option is to just reconfigure chapters higher than 9.

How to do that?

In the category selection box, where it says, sort this page by default as, you can (for example in case of chapter 11, put a B). It will the be placed under the B header.

00a. 4-8-22 SAHWERSA

Mf: I hesitated to bring this up. But after some sleeping on it and after realizing something can always be learnt in the process... Here I go...

I don't really understand where the 'When you inherit them' translation originates.

According to the Altfriesisches Wörterbuch SAHWERSE would mean 'wo auch immer' or 'wherever' in english.

Following this meaning gives (in dutch): SAHWERSA THV SE ERVE. MOT THV SE ÁK WRSKRÍVA. Waar ze je ook erve, moet je ze ook overschrijven. Wherever you inherit them, you must also make a copy.

I spent many many hours trying to find other explanations, looking into alternative translations for THV and that maybe the writer meant SAHWASA (whoever), but I suppose it is what it is (and I'm not sure it is 'when' :) What do you think?

By the way, wouldn't it be great to find a second (or third!) copy someday soon?

Jan: The word is used (45 times?) in a variety of spellings (SA-, SAH-, SÁH-, H-) and mostly meaning 'in case', 'if', 'when' etc., examples: [003/05] SÁHWERSA HJA VPBROCHT WÉRON AN SINA WLE LÉR when they had been brought up in his evil ways [003/25] SÁHWERSA ALLRA.MANNELIK [30] NW BIÁMA ÀND BIJECHTA MOT Because all must agree and affirm [004/25] SAWERSA J ÀFTA FRYA.S BÀRN WILLE NÀMMER TO WINNADE HOR THRVCH LESTA NER THVCH WÉPNE If you want your children to remain true Fryas, not to be conquered by either intrigue or force of arms [007/05] HWERSA THÉR FISKA INVR WÉTER WÉRE if there were fish in the water

The Richthofen dictionary (1840) has more explanation (mostly in Latin). Compare: "where two dogs fight for a bone, a third will run away with it".

Indeed, more copies, or the missing pages (perhaps with descendants of Kofman-Reuvers...).

00b. 14-9-22 Noten

Jan: deze door mij aangebrachte experimentele manier van nummering v/d notes gaat niet werken, omdat bij tussenvoegen van nieuwe notes de nummering niet meer klopt

Mf: Omdat we in eerste instantie alle vertalingen op één pagina aan het zetten zijn, wordt de nummering van de voetnoten een issue.

Ter info: Er zijn manieren om één voetnoot meerdere keren te gebruiken, door gebruik te maken van de re-use knop. Zo zou je dus meerdere keren een '2' kunnen laten zien als je naar voetnoet 2 wilt verwijzen.

Maar interessanter: Wat ook mogelijk is is aparte lijsten met voetnoten op 1 pagina te maken. Op het moment dat je een voetnoot toevoegt, hoef je dan alleen maar aan te geven in welke lijst die moet komen te staan.

De procedure is simpel. Voeg eerst een nieuwe referentielijst in (eventueel onder een nieuwe kop) met de optie Insert>References List. De lijst wordt gemaakt, maar heeft standaard nog geen naam. Selecteer hem en klik op Edit. Voeg een naam in (daar waar 'General References' staat).

De eerste keer dat je een nieuwe voetnoot in een nieuwe lijst wilt plaatsen moet je de naam van de lijst zelf intypen (let op: hoofdlettergevoelig, de naam moet exact overeen komen). Voor opvolgende footnotes kun je hem met de dropdown pijl selecteren. Kijk eventueel op Vertaaltestpagina voor een idee (zie Recent Changes).

Misschien moet er ook nog een soort van handleiding (engelstalig) gemaakt worden waarin we dit soort truukjes gaan uitleggen en ook wat do's en don't erbij.

Ik heb me ook verdiept in oplossingen die ook op andere aspecten van de structuur een positieve invloed kunnen hebben. Eén pagina met daarop alle vertalingen is simpelweg niet handig.

Een basisidee is om bijvoorbeeld alle blokken tekst van hetzelfde type onder te brengen in een eigen categorie (Manuscript, English, Dutch, German, Spanish, etc). De pagina's krijgen dan (nieuwe) namen als 'Manuscript: A - Hidde Oera Linda' of 'Dutch: B - Liko Ovira Linda (of een vertaalde titel)', waarbij het deel voor de dubbele punt aangeeft dat ze in de categorie Manuscript of Dutch thuishoren. Dit maakt het beheren van de teksten gemakkelijker en geeft ook mogelijkheden om templates te gebruiken. Het wordt dan bijvoorbeeld mogelijk een (just an example) pagina genaamd 'Spaanse Vertaling van Hoofdstuk A van het Manuscript' ta maken, die gebruik maakt van de originele tekst van hoofdstuk A uit de category Manuscript, terwijl een andere pagina (bijvoorbeeld) genaamd 'Duitse vertaling van Hoofdstuk A van het Manuscript' dat ook doet, net als alle andere vertalingen van dat hoofdstuk. Voordeel is dat je altijd maar 1 brontekst blijft behouden. Dus als er een keer een tikfout ontdekt wordt in het Manuscript, hoef je niet meteen alle vertalingen na te lopen, maar slechts de brontekst in de Manuscript categorie te corrigeren, waarmee alle andere pagina's die gebruikt van maken ook meteen geupdate zijn. Het klinkt complex, maar het is een kwestie van opzetten, dan gaat het vanzelf.

Wordt vervolgd...

Jan: De mogelijkheid van verschillende voetnoten is handig, maar het is inderdaad nog handiger om tzt de secties te scheiden zoals je voorstelt: wie vergelijken wil met transliteratie of andere vertalingen kan dan (eenvoudiger) meer vensters tegelijk openen. Dit wordt geweldig!

Mf: Dit is ondertussen gebeurd. Het is nu dus ook mogelijk om vertalingsgebonden Notes te maken.

Jan: Top! Dankjewel.

1a. TÍS 21-8-21

Bruce: WAS ALL GO.RÉD [15] ANDA TÍS I'm skeptical of the translation "in a state of confusion" here. Can you cite the cognate to TÍS? My gut tells me something like Dutch: twist; German: Zwist.

This is what I've made of it so far: "But after more than three days and nights, the whole council was arguing and had made no progress."

Jan: It is on a list of so-called 'forgotten' words: https://taaldacht.nl/vergeten-woorden-t/ "tis v. tissen, tist 1 streng, vlecht, met name een die moeilijk te ontwarren is: in de tis in de war • Zaans tis, tist • ~ °tijzen ‘prikken; plukken’"; My Frisian and Westfrisian dictionaries have similar entries (tiis, resp. tis).

1b. 1-9-22 Those who for their good deeds had gained a front yard for their house

Mf: Suggestion: Since when reading in the traditional order this is the first time the concept of earning a front yard is mentioned, maybe a footnote can be added referring to the fifth general law in chapter 3b, which adds context?

Jan: Good idea, I added it.

2a. 1-9-22 WÁK.STÀRE

Mf: Observation: STÀRE, according to Köbbler, also has the meaning of strengthen. This passage feels like a channeling of some sort, maybe from within an altered state of consciousness (Festa's or the whole crowd's) induced by the ritual of lighting the lamp. Both Star (the luminous aspect) and Strength (the power coming through the one, or many, speaking the channeled words) would only scratch the surface of the real experience, I suppose. But Waakster (in dutch), I suppose could also be explained as Guiding Star, Guardian Angel or Higher Self, and maybe refering to the source of the channel or where the message is coming from.

Jan: See here: https://fryskednis.blogspot.com/2022/09/star-e-stars.html

16-9-22 ALLERA MANNALIK

Mf: I suppose this could be considered nit-picking, but maybe in stead of 'all', 'everybody' represents more closely the two words from the source text?

Jan: Since the meaning is the same, "all" is closer to "allera", and it is shorter, I prefer the current choice.

Mf: I did a little check and found that: In chapter 3b and 11a ALLERA MANNALIK is translated as 'every man'. In chapter 2e, 11c and 13c 'all' is used.

In chapter 2f and 9e 'anyone' is used.

In chapter 5a, 13f, 14e and 15c 'everyone' is chosen.

In chapter 16a and 16e 'all (the) people' is used.

Of course the meaning appears to be the same to us nowadays (although in essence, it really isn't), but I was also under the impression that trying to be as true as possible to the source was a goal as well, whenever possible? Trying to use just one translation for the same word combination would seem more appropriate than adapting the translation to modern day speech for every specific instance, especially if that one translation would still have served, in my opinion. It might actually give more 'weight' to the translation, in terms of consistency, an maybe discourage critics as well. :)

Just making suggestions for what I feel could be improvements, which I believe is an eternal process... Sorry for my tenacity and please let me know if this level of meticulousness is undesirable.

Jan: I initially intended to stay as close to the original as possible, but later I found that it is better to be more flexible with it. Language is not mathematics, sometimes one translation works better, while in other contexts the same word can better be translated otherwise. Bruce and I will be going through all texts once more after this first round of edits. In the second round we'll also pay more attention to being more consequent.

2b. 1-9-22 GOD ÀND ÉVG

Mf: In the second line GOD is translated as 'whole´, while in the fifth line 'good' is chosen. Is there a specific reason? Good feels correct to me in the second line as well.

Jan: I felt that in the context of Wralda, GOD is more used in the sense of 'God': perfect, whole — than simply "good". If only Wralda would be 'good', then the 5th line would contradict it: "All that is good and dear, brought [Earth] forth by day".

The proofreader who suggested 'whole' in 2016 argued: "“Whole” because it implies goodness (e.g. wholesome; to be made whole) and an all-encompassing spatial aspect that mirrors “eternal” and matches the GD mirroring, and also alliterates with Wralda."

2f. 1-9-22 HÀV IK MIN HÁP FÀSTEGTH

Mf: I was wondering if 'fastening one's hope' is really mainstream English? I can find 'pinning one's hopes', 'to have high hopes', 'to turn one's hope towards' and also 'to rely on' are used a lot to translate 'hoop vestigen' (in dutch), but 'to fasten one's hope' is barely used online. Maybe Bruce knows?

Jan: Good question for Bruce. None of the proofreaders, including Bruce, has suggested to change it. I did find this: "Fasten Your Hope To The Unfailing Love Of God"

3e. 11-8-22 change title

Jan: It was easy to change the title (into "Security and Aftermath of War") on the index page, but how do I change it here?

4c. 17-8-22 WRDA: regions or shores?

Jan: Fragments (with translations August '22, discussion below):

1c. Names of the Reeves [005/10] GRÉVETMAN ... OVIR.A LINDA.WRDA. reeve of ... the Linda regions.

4c. Useful Precedents [029/15] BÀRN ANDA LINDA.WRDA born at the Linda regions

9b. Jon’s Revenge [066/20] THÁ KÉMON THA LANDWÉRAR UT ALLE WRDA WÉI. defenders of the land came from all over.

12. Adelbrost: Intrigues and Division [087/20] GRÉVETMÁN OVIRA LINDA WRDA. reeve over the Linda regions.

13c. Death of Adela [093/25] TO HULLANDE VSA WRDA IN THIKKE THJUSTERNISE. obscuring our region.

14a. Fryasland Swamped, ca. 305 BCE [116/05] THA WALDA THÉRA [10] LINDA WRDA The woods of the Linda regions

15c. Yesus or Buda of Kashmir [140/20] SÁ SKILUN THÉR IN ALLE WRDA MÀNNISKA VPSTONDA in all regions people will rise

16a. Canals and Dykes [143/10] MIN TÁT HETH SKRÉVEN HO THA LINDA.WRDA ÀND THA LJUD.GÁRDNE VRDILGEN SEND. LINDA.HÉM IS JETA WÉI. THA LINDA.WRDA FAR EN DÉL. My father wrote how the Linda regions and the Liudgardens were destroyed. Lindaheim is still lost, the Linda regions partially.

[143/20] THÉR.VMBE IS THÀT ROND.DÉL NW LJUD.WÉRD HÉTEN. THÁ STJÛRAR SEGATH LJV.WRD MEN THAT IS WAN.SPRÉKE Therefore, this surrounding yard is now called Liudwerd. The steersmen say ‘Liuwrd’, but that is mispronounced.

16b. Friso: Alliances [145/06] THA LJUD FON ALLE WRDA the people of all regions

16c. Friso: Praise and Suspicion [151/02] (...) NÉI MANNA.GARDA.WRDA. MANNA.GARDA.WRDA IS FARIN THIT BOK. MANNA.GARDA.FORDA SKRÉVEN. MEN THAT IS MIS DÉN to Mannagarda-waerda (-shores*). (Mannagardawaerda was spelled ‘Mannagardaforda’ earlier in this book,** but that is wrong. {*should be regions?/ **See page [005] and [112].}

16d. Adel and Ifkia [157/23] DÁNÁ TÁGON HJA INOVIR STÁVEREN.S.WRDA Thereupon, they toured along the shores* of Staveren {*should be regions?}

19a. Askar Prepares for War [196/13] THAT ALD ÀND JONG ÛT ALLE WRDUM WÉI KÉMON that young and old from everywhere came

See blogpost (nov.'16) https://fryskednis.blogspot.com/2016/11/wrd-oord-ort-ward-waro-ford.html

On the translation forum (https://oeralinda.boards.net/thread/42/029-031-useful-cases-minno), I decided to translate the fragment of 4c. as: "born at the Linda-shores"

and added this note: [029/15] "WRDA (plur.) - Dutch: waard, Old Dutch wertha, Old English waroþ - Old English words for "coast, shore" were strand, waroþ, ofer. Few Indo-European languages have such a single comprehensive word for "land bordering water" (https://www.etymonline.com/word/shore#etymonline_v_23432)"

Proofreader commented (1) on translation: "Do we know where this is, specifically? If not, I’m inclined to put the original in the text for “Linda-shore” and footnote it “Linden-shores” so as to make it easier to locate it based on either the name or its translation."

And (2) on the note: "A “coast” or “coastline” evokes the sight from sea of land stretching out in whatever directions. A “shore” evokes a limited section of coastline, and includes the movement of the tide, perpendicular to the coastline, and usually from the point of view of the land. Both are really only applicable to waters the size of oceans or seas, although “shores” could be used for large rivers, along with “banks” or “beaches” depending on their shape. Any area that is largely influenced by maritime professions might be considered a “seaside” (town, area, house), and as it is the most comprehensive choice, I think it may be closest to the meaning of WRDA, but in the case above, “-shores” is very much in keeping with how people currently denominate a dwelling-place near a promient water feature."

My reply to (1): "It is not clear where exactly it was. The original word Lindawrda would be awkward to pronounce (in the mind) of many readers. I have considered Lindawards, but that might be confusing too. Elsewhere in the texts, Linda-woods is used. I guess it will have to be explained in introduction or good foot-note."

For the published editions of COL thus far, I decided for 'regions' after all, without explaining it in a note.

Bruce: When reading GRÉVETMAN ... OVIR.A LINDA.WRDA, I think of the English word 'ward: A district into which a city or town is divided for the purpose of administration and elections'. Also 'hospital ward'. Yet, in other contexts it can certainly mean shores or other things. E.g. when I first read BÀRN ANDA LINDA.WRDA, I actually (mistakenly) saw WRDA as part of the predicate BÀRN ... WRDA. Fun stuff! To get at least one instance of the English suffix "worth" meaning "area (near a river)", I randomly searched for an invented name: Chelmsworth. I got a hit for 'Chelsworth', which included this: The Saxons called the area Ceorleswyrthe. Recorded in Domesday as "Cerleswrda". :-)

Jan: Fascinating. I should study that Domesday book someday.

Still not sure what to make of LINDA.WRDA: shores of the Linde, Lindawards, Linde region(s), or...?

Bruce: ...near the River Linda... or you could Anglicize it: Lindasworth (I jest)

Jan: After I mailed you, saying I would use 'shores', I read your replies again and think your first suggestion Linda-ward may be best. However, WRDA is plural. Would Lindawards, Linda-wards or Linda wards/Wards work? Although (what is left of) the river is now known as 'Linde/Lende', I prefer the original spelling 'Linda' (because of link to book title).

4d. 19-8-22 KLUCHT - joke, play

Jan: [031/20] FORSKA HROPATH WÀRK. WÀRK. ÀND HJA NE DVATH NAWET AS HIPPA ÀND <<KLUCHT>> MÁKJA.

"Frogs cry: ‘work, work!’, but they do nothing but hop and make << silly noises (B)>>."

J: I think their silly noises are already covered by 'work, work!'; In Kiliaan (Etymologicum Teutonicae Linguae, 1599), "Kluchte" is defined as "Ludicrum, res ludricra, res iocularis: mimus. & Fabula, apologus, facetiae, acroama, ludicra narratio, inauditiuncula.", so something like 'play' or 'joke' would be more justifiable.

Bruce: goof off (modern but fits as the opposite of working); possible alternatives: fool around, get up to nonsense

4g. 19-8-22 (GIF IN MIN) MET

Jan: [040/01] ÉNIS FAND IK GIF IN MIN <<MET>>.

"Once I found poison in my <<mead (B)>>.

Bruce: when he refers to SWETE WINA MITH DÉJANDE [10] FENIN a few lines later, he says himself that the story of being poisoned is meant to underline the nature of the relationship with the FINDA.S . So, doesn't it make sense, given that MET likely means both 'meat' and 'mead', that he is referring to the latter?

Jan: I think he would simply have said "ÉNIS FAND IK GIF IN MIN WIN" and not use a word for mead. MÉID(-E), plur. -UM is used for what I interpret as 'mead hall'.

Koebler Oldfrisian dictionary has: mete - food

Cognate meat: "from Old English mete "food, nourishment, sustenance" (paired with drink)"

So, I would rather keep "food" for MET.

Jan: I cannot switch between 'visual' and 'source' editing, and could not add external links: https://www.koeblergerhard.de/afries/afries_m.html https://www.etymonline.com/word/meat#etymonline_v_12500

Bruce: Thanks

7a. 22-7-22 left-behind

Mf: Suggestion: left-behind implies someone did this to them. Maybe 'desolate' is a better choice?

Jan: Desolate may seem etymologically related to 'verlaten', but it is from Latin 'solare'. It indeed fitts better though and can be explain in a footnote: "those who lived on the islands were called 'Lets', because they mostly lived in desolate locations."* [*'desolate' (VRLÉTEN) — lit. 'left over' or 'left behind' (Dutch/German: verlaten/verlassen).]

Mf: Putting 'lat' in bold was meant as a joke, because it sounds like let. Lost in translation I guess. :)

22-7-22 TOJENST.VR THA

Mf: Intuition says that 'opposite' might be something else, but maybe I'm way off. Let's see. Investigating I find 'tôgest' (with variant TOAIE and related to TOGEN and TIJGEN (and I suppose TOCHT) - https://gtb.ivdnt.org/toaie), which would make for "Wandering through... (Trekkend/migrating door/over de Denemarken)"? Why would they say 'opposite' someplace in stead of naming the place they settled? I guess I don't understand the 'ST' part of TOJENST yet...

Jan: 'toienst' according to various Old Frisian dictionaries means 'against' (Dutch: 'tegen'), which also fitts well with the other (at least 9) OL fragments in which it is used. A good online dictionary is this one https://www.koeblergerhard.de/afrieswbhinw.html So, TOJENST.VR would be 'tegenover' (opposite). Opposite the Denmarks and the Jutterland may refer to Sweden.

Mf: What was I thinking. I guess I need to step back a bit and do some more translating first. Sorry for the unnecessary comments. Feel free to erase them to avoid more confusion.

16-7-22 WEL TWELIF GRÁTA SWETE RIN. STRAMA

Mf: "No less than" could be replaced by "as many as"

also it would be "given >>to<< us by Wralda" and probably ">>His<< sea"

Jan: All suggestions accepted. Thanks!

21-7-22 NE MOCHTE NACH KVNDE

Mf: "have the means nor skills" seems to be missing a translation for 'MOCHTE'? I suppose mögen (from German) is the right meaning (not may, from english), which would give "wouldn´t nor couldn't"

Jan: I interpreted MOCHTE as from verb 'vermoghen' (kunnen, in staat zijn; zie ook gtb/MUGAN), which would make it almost synonymous to KVNDE. That they had neither skills nor means made more sense to me than that they could not and would not want to. However, in theory it could be right. Short review of uses of varieties of MOCHTE (often MACHTE which suggests relation to Dutch 'macht': power) shows that it is mostly if not always used meaning 'to be able' or 'to be allowed':

[002/20] THÀT THA FINNA RA BÀRN NÉN WÉPNE HANTÉRA <<MACHTE>>. ÀND BLÁT WÀRKA [25] MOSTE. that the children of the Finns <<could>> not use weapons and could only toil,

[006/05] THÁ HROP FRYA FON HIRA WÁK.STÀRE SÁ THÀT ALLERA MANNALIK THÀT HÉRA <<MACHTE>>. FÀSTA. NIM THINRA STIFTE ÀND WRYT THA THINGA THÉR IK ÉR NAVT SEDSA NE <<MACHTE>>. Frya called from her watch-star so that all <<could>> hear it: ‘Festa, take up your stylus and write the words that I <<could>> not say earlier.’

[013/10] SÁHWERSA THÀT <<MACHTE>> BÉRA If it were to happen (lit. if that <<could>> happen)

[057/20] THÉR HI MITH THA LJVDUM FRÉTHOCH LÉVA <<MACHTE>>. where he and his men <<could>> live in peace.

[066/01] THACH SÍRHÉD JEFTA [5] KÀLTA NE <<MOCHTON>> HJA NAVT TO FÁTANE. But Syrhed, or Kelta, they <<could>> not capture.

[147/01] THRVCH THISSE SKIKKING <<MOCHTON>> THA JUTTAR THAT LAND HALDA By this arrangement, the Jutters <<could>> keep the land

[159/20] SVNDER THÀT STEMLÉTH HJAM VRRÉDA <<MOCHT>> without a stammer betraying them (lit. ... <<could>> betray them)

[198/10] HWÉR AN MÀN ÉNE STÉLEN KRÁN.BOGE <<MOCHT>> FÀSTIGJA. upon which steel crossbows <<could>> be fixed

Mf: Loud and clear. I chose 'podían ni sabían' (could not nor knew how to) for the Spanish translation.

8b. 21-8-22 MÉRA

Jan: IN HJARA MÉRA FVNGEN: ('ensnared by their lies' or 'caught in their trap'/ Koebler: mēre - Band, Fessel, Geschirrriemen)

Bruce: My suggestion is [1] “He was thus ensnared and crowned by the magus.” I like ‘ensnared’ better than ‘trap’ (which brings to mind a box, while the former is to be caught in ropes (Koebler: mēre - Band, Fessel, Geschirrriemen), as well as to be tricked into something. To be even closer to the original, we could also say: [2] “Thus, he was caught in their snares and crowned…”

Jan: [1] sounds good. Thanks!

18. 8-7-22 fragmentnummering

Jan: een vorm van fragmentnummering zal nodig zijn, vooral bij grotere hoofdstukken zoals dit voorbeeld